Saturday, March 26, 2011
She's A Witch but Fortunately She's Not a Bridger
For the benefit of Pirate Christian parrots that may be reading stuff on this blog; some Monty Python humor.
Chris Rosebrough's Letter to Jason Coyle of "Ever A Burr-ean" Blog
Jason,
I have real heretics and real false teachers that I need to spend my time warning the church about. I've already publicly laid out what the Biblical doctrine of Unity and Separation is on my radio program and I stand by that teaching. Furthermore, I stand by the fact that neither Dr. Horton nor myself have run afoul of what the Bible actually forbids regarding Unity and Separation regardless of what a few deeply misguided and misinformed people have written on their blogs.
If you and Paula want to spend your time warning the church about orthodox proclaimers and defenders of the Biblical Gospel because you believe their guilty of not abiding by the doctrines of primary or secondary separation and if you want to adopt Ingrid's newly discovered rank in the army of Satan known as the "Bridger" or spend your weekends slaying windmills, then go ahead. Like I said, anyone who claims to have the gift of discernment but cannot properly identify friend and foe needs to take up a different career.
But, while you're warning the church about men like Michael Horton and myself, Dr. Horton and I will be warning the Body of Christ about the real threats that she's facing and equipping her to stand against her real enemies with real Biblical doctrine that centers on Christ and Him crucified for our sins. And when permitted, will even challenge the false doctrines and teachings of heretics to their faces and call them to repentance in their presence or in a personal conversation, knowing that heresy is not spread through casual contact nor does conversing privately or publicly with a heretic make one 'unclean' or a partaker in their heresies, nor does the Bible forbid a Christian to do that. In fact, the balanced Biblical view is found in 2 Thessalonians 3:13–15 which states:
Chris
I have real heretics and real false teachers that I need to spend my time warning the church about. I've already publicly laid out what the Biblical doctrine of Unity and Separation is on my radio program and I stand by that teaching. Furthermore, I stand by the fact that neither Dr. Horton nor myself have run afoul of what the Bible actually forbids regarding Unity and Separation regardless of what a few deeply misguided and misinformed people have written on their blogs.
If you and Paula want to spend your time warning the church about orthodox proclaimers and defenders of the Biblical Gospel because you believe their guilty of not abiding by the doctrines of primary or secondary separation and if you want to adopt Ingrid's newly discovered rank in the army of Satan known as the "Bridger" or spend your weekends slaying windmills, then go ahead. Like I said, anyone who claims to have the gift of discernment but cannot properly identify friend and foe needs to take up a different career.
But, while you're warning the church about men like Michael Horton and myself, Dr. Horton and I will be warning the Body of Christ about the real threats that she's facing and equipping her to stand against her real enemies with real Biblical doctrine that centers on Christ and Him crucified for our sins. And when permitted, will even challenge the false doctrines and teachings of heretics to their faces and call them to repentance in their presence or in a personal conversation, knowing that heresy is not spread through casual contact nor does conversing privately or publicly with a heretic make one 'unclean' or a partaker in their heresies, nor does the Bible forbid a Christian to do that. In fact, the balanced Biblical view is found in 2 Thessalonians 3:13–15 which states:
“As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.The correct Biblical understanding of separation informs us that we are to do 2 things when it comes dealing with heretics and false teachers.
- Have nothing to do with the person who doesn't abide in sound doctrine (this is referring to church fellowship not casual contact. How do I know? See point 2)
- Warn him as a brother (this is impossible to do if "having nothing to do with him" means we can't even have a conversation with that person. (conversation ≠ church fellowship)
Chris
Beware the Bridgers by Ingrid Schlueter
Beware the Bridgers
by Ingrid Schlueter
Tuesday's Crosstalk Show will be a look at the "bridge people" of spiritual deception. The work of subverting the Gospel can't occur without those who attempt to bridge the gap between biblical Christians and emerging spirituality teachers. "Bridgers" are the authors and leaders with well-polished doctrinal statements who cannot be faulted on paper (or their websites) for believing heresy. Their role is different than that of the obvious Wolf that openly stalks its prey.
The role of the Bridger is that of the Judas Goat, famed for attracting sheep to slaughter. The Judas Goat is not the actual instrument of death. It attracts the sheep to the place where it will be slaughtered. So while a Bridger will not stand in a church and teach from his pulpit or at conferences that there is no literal hell or that the substitutionary penal atonement of Christ was Divine child abuse, he will favorably quote from the books of those who do teach that. Or he might ask a Wolf to endorse his latest book on the back.
The Bridger will speak at conferences with these same Wolves and have photos taken with them. He will quote, selectively, from the Wolves and throw in the qualifier that he "doesn't agree with everything the guy teaches or writes", but he has found so and so's book on leadership really helpful.
When you go to the Bridger's website, however, and click on his doctrinal statement, confusion begins. The Bridger is Trinitarian. He believes in salvation through the work of Christ on the cross. He believes we all have sin. He believes in God's grace. He ascribes to the Apostle's Creed. The Bridger doesn't fit on the heterodoxy chart. He must be OK after all.
This is increasingly the way error is disseminated. Flagrant heretics like Brian McLaren are not difficult to spot. His open denial of cardinal doctrine raises red flares to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Scripture and belief in its authority. The enemy of souls is not so stupid as carry error forward only on the backs of the ravening Wolves. He needs the Bridgers. He helps them find useful dupes among Christian apologetics leaders whose egos are flattered by a sense of importance in being chosen to "dialog" with a them. Chummy photos are taken. Credit is given where none is deserved. Warm handshakes occur, private late night phone calls are exchanged, remarks are made over coffee…and another Bridger is given credibility publicly, successfully providing a gateway to error for those who are taken in.
I believe that just as believers are called to specific jobs in the church, the enemy of souls has assigned jobs to those in the hierarchy of spiritual darkness. There are high level roles and less visible roles. The end result for which they work is the same: the destruction of the biblical Gospel and the promotion of a spirituality that is anti-christ.
We cannot afford to be naive in this hour of growing spiritual delusion. We who are believers in Jesus Christ and who hold fast to the bedrock truths of Scripture cannot afford to give an inch to the Bridgers. Satan works in the area of pride and Christian leaders who have not checked that impulse in their hearts and who lust after credibility as bloggers, apologists, speakers, authors or teachers can unwittingly become the dupes of the Bridgers.
In the book of Nehemiah, we see the response recorded when Sanballot and Tobiah came to "dialog" with God's people. Several times they sought to stop the work of wall building that was underway. The response sent back by Nehemiah to the troublemakers down below was short and clear: "We are building a wall. We cannot come down."
That must be the response of bloggers, podcasters, radio broadcasters and authors when they are invited to "dialog" about spiritual things with emerging church teachers. Truth is not to be debated with false teachers, it is to be proclaimed. That is our role, like the Apostles of old, in the the middle of this encircling spiritual darkness. May God keep all of us faithful.
Distributed by www.worldviewweekend.com
On Mar 13, 2011, at 12:52, Chris Rosebrough wrote:
On Mar 13, 2011, at 12:52, Chris Rosebrough wrote:
Jason,
I've read and reread your proposal and appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. That being said, despite my willingness to discuss this topic with you, because you've requested that certain topics that I believe are central to issue at hand be considered outside of the scope of our conversation, I cannot agree participate in the discussion. The topics that you've stated should be outside of the scope of our discussion are:
Since I have been clear from the start that it is my firm contention that Ingrid is the one who coined the term Bridger, it would simply be impossible for me to properly discuss this topic without referencing:
- Whether Ingrid (or others) have applied the term to people wrongly
- Whether the term itself is reasonable and worth using
- Any comments on the way you (or others) have criticized the term or those who have used it
Therefore, I will not agree to any discussion on this topic that restricts me from putting forward what I believe the problem is and providing the supporting evidence needed to defend my thesis.
- Ingrid's publicly stated definition(s) and use of the term Bridger
- Who is a Bridger according to Ingrid's definition(s)
- The unbiblical standard of evidence employed by Ingrid in determining who is a Bridger
- Ingrid's use of the informal logical fallacy, Guilt by Association in order to brand Christian leaders as Bridgers
- How Ingrid's failure to provide proper evidence in context and her use of logical fallacies has resulted in a witch hunt mentality that casts suspicion on leaders in the church who actually believe, teach, confess and defend the Biblical gospel.
- Ingrid's publicly stated prescription for protecting the Body of Christ from Bridgers.
I do not believe that a dialogue, no matter how amicably handled, that is limited to some abstract discussion of the concept of Bridger, detached from the context of current events will help the cause of truth or unity.
Chris
Beware the Bridgers Part 1 - Recovered from Google Save
November 16, 2010
Beware the Bridgers Part 1: Orthodoxy is More Than a Doctrinal Statement
| Host: | Ingrid Schlueter |
| Guest: | Deborah Dombrowski |
| Listen: | RealAudio | Windows Media | MP3 | Order Tape or CD To listen we recommend Windows Media, RealAudio, Winamp, or QuickTime players. |
This Crosstalk looks at Dan Kimball, an author and pastor who has been part of the emerging church movement since its beginnings with Leadership Network.
Dan Kimball has an orthodox doctrinal statement, yet he continues to participate with the major false teachers of the emergent church movement. Is an orthodox doctrinal statement enough when assessing the truth of a spiritual leader? How can someone who claims an orthodox doctrinal statement participate with, fellowship with and point others to those teaching doctrines of demons? Should biblical Christian leaders "dialog" with emergent leaders? These questions are addressed in part one of this two-day series on Bridgers - teachers who work to bridge the gap between biblical Christianity and the mystical doctrines of contemplative spirituality.
More Information
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com
http://www.lighthousetrails.com
To obtain a copy of the book, A Wonderful Deception by Warren Smith for a donation of $18 or more:
Crosstalk
3434 West Kilbourn Avenue
Milwaukee, WI 53214
1-800-729-9829 M-F 8am-5pm Central
Order the book online
To order today's program on CD or Cassette for a donation of $6.00
Online: Use the link at the top of this entry
By mail:
Crosstalk
3434 W. Kilbourn Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53208
By phone: 1-800-729-9829 M-F 8am-5pm Central
Chris Rosebrough and Bill Hybels Promotes Dan Kimball
Dan Kimball
Got the idea for this blog title from a YouTube video linked below:
Chris Rosebrough loves guilt by association when it works in his favor?
Museum of Idolatry? East of Eden
Per my understanding, this is Chris Rosebrough's favorite James Dean movie. Chris sort of worships this movie? Frankly, I prefer....
Museum of Idolatry? Monty Python
As everyone who listens to "Fighting for the Faith" knows, Chris Rosebrough (Pirate Christian) is an addict of Monty Python. This is great as it would be sad that Chris was only idol worshiping James Dean and "East of Eden". [Satire]
Museum of Idolatry? James B. Dean Gravesite
Chris Rosebrough (Pirate Christian) and Dan Kimball made a pilgrimage to the grave site of James Byron Dean. While discussing their mutual love of James Dean, Chris Rosebrough decides that Dan Kimball is a Orthodox Christian Brother in the faith. They will know we are true Christians by our love of the classic movie titled "East of Eden". It took only six hours for Chris to determine that Dan Kimball was a brother in Christ. James Dean bonding really speed up the process?
To the best of historical record; there was no discussion about Dan Kimball reading Jonathan Edwards during the James Dean grave site pilgrimage. Jonathan Edwards is a confused Calvinist and Chris Rosebrough is a Lutheran. No documentation that Martin Luther was talked about either as James Dean and "East of Eden" appeared to be the major Bridger issue between Chris Rosebrough and Dan Kimball.
Everyone want to know; is James Dean in Heaven? Love Wins?
You can take a pilgrimage with your favorite Emergent Church person (maybe Dan Kimball?) to the graveside of James Dean; the info is here.
Everyone want to know; is James Dean in Heaven? Love Wins?
You can take a pilgrimage with your favorite Emergent Church person (maybe Dan Kimball?) to the graveside of James Dean; the info is here.
Dan Kimball - They Like Jesus But Not the Church
Chris Rosebrough likes Dan Kimball of the Emergent Church Movement. Is Chris Rosebrough a bridger for Dan Kimball to get inside the true church like John Piper and Michael Horton a bridger for Rick Warren?
Dan Kimball at Willow Creek mega-church.
Chris Rosebrough interviews Dan Kimball of "Vintage Church" on "Fighting for the Faith" - Dan Kimball a brother in Christ that is Orthodox
Chris Rosebrough needs an intervention on Dan Kimball Deal
Friday, March 25, 2011
Important Links on Pirate Christian (Chris Rosebrough) Gone Wild!
Horton at Saddleback - White Horse Inn
Interview with Pirate Christian
Update 2 on Fighting for the Faith
A Plea to Chris Rosebrough
BridgerGate
Pyromanics on Dan Kimball (Pirate Christian Defends Him & Likes Him)
A Time to Run
CrossTalk Blog Founder Resigns,, Warns Church About Michael Horton
Pirate Christian Disses James White
True Story of Michael Horton / Rick Warren Photo with the Calvin Statue
The true story of the controversial photo is it is a joke reference to this commercial for Calvin Klein Jeans per the White Horse Inn blog. Nothing comes between Michael Horton and his Calvin (note statue of Calvin between Rick Warren and Michael Horton); not even Rick Warren.
Hyper-Spiritual Discernmentalism @ Critical Flash Point?
I have noted smaller players at CRN become burned out from getting too argumentative with those that they disagree with. This blog is under new management as it is the abandoned blog of an ex-CRN contributor who appears to have become just another burned out CRN hate contributor.
There is the appearance that Ingrid Schlueter may have second thoughts about the hyper-spiritual discernment ministry industry she played a key role in creating? Time will tell ....
Copied from another blog:
*Note* Due to the lies being told by Mr. Rosebrough which are multiplying through social media, I (Ingrid Schlueter) am posting his threatening emails to me below. Judge for yourself if this is the spirit of Christ or a heart of hatred. This is the only contact he had with me. No phone calls, no other kindly meant emails of disagreement with me. Just these threats, followed by days of personal attack and distortions on his podcast.
Some readers of the news and comment blog I published have asked where it has gone. I have turned a corner in my life, and am no longer going to be doing that kind of writing or work again.
It wasn’t the vicious personal attacks and public ridicule by podcaster Chris Rosebrough over two days last week or his two emailed threats that ended the blog (CrossTalk blog). That was part of it, but the real reason I shut it down is that I was operating under some false beliefs while feverishly documenting the collapse of evangelicalism
I have likened my last 7 years in the “discernment” blogging world to experiencing one of those carnival “fun” houses. Except this house was not fun, it was a house of horrors–not because of the steady stream of appalling news stories about what has happened to Protestant evangelical Christianity, but because of the hypocrisy, the cowardice, the interpersonal malice and rampant spiritual dysfunction that rules so much of the ministry scene today, online or otherwise. There are wonderful exceptions, but exceptions are not the problem.
Like in a carnival house, I encountered stairways that looked as though they led somewhere, but led nowhere, mirrors that looked real, but they distorted reality beyond all recognition. I encountered clowns in full terrifying paint, and floors that dropped off suddenly when they appeared to be straight. Things are not what they seem. Not at all. And I’m not talking about emergent church leaders or seeker church drones either.
I will be writing about some of those false beliefs that I had in the future in hopes that I might lend some long overdue balance and offer some cautions for those involved in similar work. I can tell you that after 23 years in issues talk radio in the evangelical world, the last 7 online have been an experience I would not wish on my worst enemy. Taking heat for your views on moral issues or even theology is one thing that Christians should expect, and I knew what that was like for years with radio. But the interpersonal carnage, treachery, dishonesty and hatred I’ve experienced behind the scenes and publicly online is the stuff of horror novels, not Christianity.
Tom, who earns a living for our family and has nothing to do with the online garbage that goes on between professing believers, said to me, “Who are all these sick people?” He watched in amazement last week as self-proclaimed Christian “apologist” Chris Rosebrough of Pirate Christian Radio threatened by email to “fully broadside” me, promised to unload his “cannons” against me, among other violent metaphors. “Why are these people in our lives? We wouldn’t associate with this kind of lowlife in our home. Why online?” It was an excellent question. The light dawned.
Having found the exit door to the carnival house by God’s grace, I only ask myself what took me so long.
Note: I will not be taking comments on this post. I won’t have the validity of what I’ve experienced questioned, attacked, or be maligned by those who read this blog with hateful intent. This site is about hope and positive change. The world has had enough of faux Christianity.
Emails from Chris Rosebrough:
From: Chris Rosebrough <chris@extremetheology.com>
Date: Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:49 PM
Subject: I’ve loaded up the cannons on the Pirate Ship again
To: Ingrid Schlueter <ingrid@vcyamerica.org>
Ingrid,
I just saw your recent blog post where you throw Mike Horton under your “discernment” bus.
This is libel Ingrid!
Pictures do not say more than words. Only someone who has zero discernment would be so obtuse as to to think that someone is theologically compromised by simply posting a photo of them rather than actually demonstrating from the person’s books, lectures and articles that their theology is not in accord with scripture and the gospel. By doing what you are doing you are breaking the 8th Commandment and wronging the Body of Christ, and your Christian Brother, Michael Horton who has done far more than you have or ever will in proclaiming and defending the Gospel.
Since you continue to shoot at the good guys and treat them as enemies of the Cross it is clear that you are the one who has become the enemy of Christ.
I’m bringing the Pirate Ship around and have the cannons loaded again and am ready for a full broadside against you.
May I recommend that you repent. Because, at this point I’m not only going to publicly rebuke your false discernment I think its time to speak with your pastor and to press for church discipline being pursued against you for your unrepentant and blatant breaking of the the 8th Commandment.
Pirate Christian
When I didn’t respond, he sent this the following morning.
| Mar 3 (8 days ago) | |||||||||||||||||||||
Ingrid,
Quoting Spurgeon Won’t Spare You From the Cannons!
Since you’ve decided to entrench rather than repent, let me ask you a few questions about your post that you so confidently believe demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that Dr. Horton and Rick Warren are now in Union / Association with each other:
In the photograph, which of the cardinal doctrines of the historic Christian faith, has Dr. Horton renounced?
In the photograph, which doctrines of the Doctrines of Grace has Dr. Horton agreed to compromise on?
In the photograph, which of the statements that Dr. Horton has made on his radio program or in his books against Rick Warren’s pragmatism has Dr. Horton agreed to retract and recant or simply omit from his public teaching?
Since, according to you, this photograph proves that Rick Warren has infiltrated the Reformed Ranks, show me where in this photograph that Dr. Horton has agreed to let Rick Warren and his people train the students at Westminster Seminary in purpose-driven church methodology?
In the photograph, where has Dr. Horton has agreed to join Leadership Network and spearhead a PEACE Plan initiative in Africa?
And while you’re answering those questions, here is one more, If Dr. Horton is now in Union / Association with Rick Warren show us from Dr. Horton’s writing, lectures, radio and programs that he’s begun to theologically compromise in his doctrinal distinctives and is now drifting into the apostasy and embracing and or promoting Rick Warren’s heresies.
Your post fails to quote a single statement made by Dr. Horton that shows that Rick Warren has infiltrated the Modern Reformation wing of the Reformed Camp but instead, like a grocery store tabloid, smears the man’s character with a wild and unsubstantiatable interpretation of a photograph.
That’s not discernment Ingrid, that’s gossip and divisiveness and is a breaking of the 8th commandment and it is a grievous sin.
If you will not repent of this sin then I am taking it upon myself to publicly expose and rebuke your false and misleading ‘discernment’ and I assure you that it will be done with the exact same measure of “grace, kindness and brotherly concern” that you have given to Dr. Horton.
Prepare to be boarded!
Pirate Christian
A blogger in the UK sent this to Chris calling him to repent for his bullying. Chris has never received a public rebuke for this conduct so the public remains unaware of his tactics. He is unrepentant towards me.
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Daniel ******
Date: Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Quoting Spurgeon Won’t Spare You From the Cannons
To: Chris Rosebrough <chris@extremetheology.com>
Cc: Ingrid Schlueter <ingrid@vcyamerica.org>
Chris,
Ingrid has forwarded me your second email.
Leaving the issue of Ingrid’s article and Dr. Horton entirely to one side, your tone continues to be hectoring and utterly counterproductive. This kind of bullying is not the exercise of Biblical or godly correction with the intention of bringing about repentance, reconciliation and restoration. Rather, it is the attempt to browbeat one’s opponent into submission by threats and sheer force of words, with no regard to consequences. If you are unable to speak with genuine ‘grace, kindness and brotherly concern’, you should be silent.
As for the continued use of pirate language, I have to say again that I find this to be entirely inappropriate. And for any man to say to a woman, ‘Prepare to be boarded!’, carries strong overtones of physical violence and rape, and is utterly reprehensible. Such language would be absolutely inexcusable in the secular realm. To see it from the hand of a brother is lamentable. I fear for you. Step back from the brink. Repent.
–
D
Pirate Christian Says Ingrid Schlueter has Zero Spiritual Discernment?
It is sometimes hard to understand Twitter communication. Another Tweet version is that Chris Rosebrough claimed that Ingrid Schlueter had zero discernment and should go into picking bananas. The banana reference appeared to be a reference to Ray Comfort's banana controversy.
Breaking News: Pirate Christian (Chris Rosebrough) New Banana Man of Spiritual Discernment?
Overheard on Twitter, CRN (Christian Research Network) in it’s defense of Ingrid Schlueter is calling Pirate Christian (Chris Rosebrough) the new banana man with zero spiritual discernment? This is a reference to Ray Comfort’s error with a banana.
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